PNC 6/6/12


 * Agenda PNC MEETING


 * 08/23/2012 18:00h PST
 * IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
 * Room: #pnc
 * Wiki: [http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_6/06/12 http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_6/06/12]

participating

 * Zacqary Adam Green, New York
 * Liz Brunner, NY
 * Brad Hall, Florida
 * Jeff Talada, Washington
 * Jarod, GA
 * matuck, GA
 * James O'Keefe, MA

At Large Members of the PNC

 * sacha, MI
 * itspara, Maryland

Proceedings

 * Meeting opened at 9:06pm EST by Travis McCrea
 * Meeting closed at 11:42pm EST by Travis McCrea
 * Meeting chaired by Travis McCrea
 * Secretary for this meeting is QuazarGuy
 * Quorum is established. [] Members out of [] present
 * Logging Enabled: Yes

Review of previous minutes

 * [http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_5/23/12 http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_5/23/12]

Massachusetts

 * will be marching in the Boston Pride Parade this Saturday with our banner and pirate ship
 * also have a table
 * exploring helping a local non-profit with its ballot drive to get various advisory questions for state rep districts
 * the question is to ask state rep. to support a const. amendment to overturn citizens united
 * working on JP's campaign
 * exploring possible legal suit to challenge early deadline
 * holding monthly pirate lunches
 * looking to setup a hack day to get a liquid feedback server up
 * making connections, planning summer events
 * will probably be at the boston freedom rally which is pro-hemp fest in September

Washington

 * Planning to go around the state to help form local groups

Georgia

 * Still working on getting things together to get registered

Florida

 * Same as we were last week

New York

 * Zac and Liz are going to be in an article in the next issue of politik und kommunikation
 * Rehearsing the Pirate Choir this weekend
 * Interviewing with Joe Satran of the Huffington Post
 * Josh Lafazan is an 18-year-old kid from my hometown of Syosset who got elected to the Syosset school board, attempting conversion
 * On a platform of "why the hell is the superintendent being paid $500,000"

Progress on Temporary PNC Objectives

 * http://pirate-party.us/news/article/temporary-pirate-national-committee
 * https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aLMIpfAPMqIMRET12kNayo0j5kBFNyQOkT-9v0IGwYY/edit?pli=1
 * Massachusetts moves that we establish a constitution committee that consists of two co-chairs appointed by the PNC and any other members who are interested in joining. quorum shall consist of a majority of active members of the committee.
 * 5 for, at-large (.5) for
 * Motion to appoint chairs next week
 * 5 for, at-large (.5) for
 * Motion to have candidates confirmed by Sunday 9:00pm EDT
 * 5 for, at-large (.5) for
 * Motion to use ranked voting to determine the co-chairs of committees
 * 4 for, at-large (.5) for
 * Motion for the ballot to be open
 * Amend to secret instead of open
 * 2 for, 1 against, at-large (.5) for
 * 2 for, 1 abstain, at-large (.5) for
 * Motion to adjourn
 * 2 for, 1 against, at-large (1) for

VPN
Any states that would like to provide VPN service to their members: This is the same system being adopted by PPI for member countries, so it's pretty awesome. It's a great way for your state to make money to be used for advertising and party funds. Here is the order page http://acceptculture.org/ to get a feel for it. (ignore the current prices, they are just place holders)
 * Rates would be $10 p/mo $35 p/6mo $60 p/yr
 * Your state would make $5 $15 $30 respectively (not per signup, but per mo/6/yr)

AOB
Next meeting: 6/13/12 at 9:00pm EST

Meeting closed: at 11:42 pm EST

Logs
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 * <@kusanagi> Meeting called at 9.09pm NY time
 * <@kusanagi> Attendance
 *  can you put up a pad?
 * <@kusanagi> Not from my phone.
 *  ah
 * <@kusanagi> I'm still unale to actually type
 * <@kusanagi> Yay swype,
 * where is travis he said he was gonna be here
 * <@kusanagi> I know
 * <@kusanagi> Somewhere
 * <@kusanagi> Roll call
 * <@kusanagi> Name, state, and if you're a delegate.
 *  Zacqary Adam Green, New York, and I guess I'm a delegate now, right?
 * <@kusanagi> Liz Brunner, NY delegate.
 *  Brad Hall, Florida, delegate
 *  I guess not.
 *  Jeff Talada, Washington
 *  Jarod GA
 * SOrry guys i thought it was 6:30 for whatever reason
 * I am around
 * <@kusanagi> Ok
 * <@kusanagi> Is that all?
 * Also the minutes for last week are blank because Zacqary has not emailed me the minutes for last week
 *  Yes I did.
 * Can you re-send please? :)
 * travis.mccrea@pirateparty.ca
 * <@kusanagi> Sacha, Ganrao
 *  (Link: https://pnc.piratenpad.de/PNC-6-6-12)https://pnc.piratenpad.de/PNC-6-6-12
 * thanks jarod_
 *  I do what I can!
 *  sorry to interrupt, but I have a bit of a family issue at the moment and willl be afk for the meeting
 * <@kusanagi> Sure
 * Family comes first
 *  thanks guys
 * <@kusanagi> Ok
 * <@kusanagi> State updates
 * Pirate National Committee of the United States Pirate Party | Meeting Agenda 5/30/12 - (Link: https://pnc.piratenpad.de/PNC-6-6-12)https://pnc.piratenpad.de/PNC-6-6-12 | Constitution Working Document: (Link: http://iPir.at/constitution)http://iPir.at/constitution | Committees: (Link: http://iPir.at/committee)http://iPir.at/committee | Meeting Times: Wednesdays at 2100EST/1800PST
 *  Resent the minutes by the way, Trav.
 *  open the pad please
 * <@teamcoltra> Okay so state updates everyone! Is Mass here?
 * <@kusanagi> QuazarGuy: can't work piratepad on my phone, but I havehw iki
 *  teamcoltra can open it
 * <@teamcoltra> QuazarGuy
 * <@teamcoltra> look at the topic
 * <@teamcoltra> :) THe new one
 *  I don't have an account
 * <@teamcoltra> Ohh
 * <@teamcoltra> I see
 * @kusanagi facepalms
 * <@teamcoltra> Opened
 * <QuazarGuy> thanks
 * <@teamcoltra> I would have used "Unlock", since "open" to me means "click on the link"
 * <QuazarGuy> I temporarilly forgot that word
 * <@teamcoltra> Okay since mass isn't here, OK isn't here either, QuazarGuy you are up first
 * <QuazarGuy> most of the Washington people have been super busy with work the past couple weeks
 * <QuazarGuy> I'm planning to go around the state to help form local groups
 * <QuazarGuy> done
 * <@teamcoltra> Awesome, jokeefe - you are Oregon right?
 * <@teamcoltra> I believe you are up next
 * <@kusanagi> No
 * <@teamcoltra> for a state report
 * <@teamcoltra> oh?
 * <@kusanagi> He's ma
 * <@teamcoltra> Oh thats right
 * <@kusanagi> ...
 * <@teamcoltra> Sorry, Well he is still up next
 * <@teamcoltra> :P because we skipped him
 * <@kusanagi> I'm going to skip you.
 * brb, gotta sing to my daughter
 * <@kusanagi> Or.. something.
 * <@teamcoltra> jokeefe - no problem
 * <@kusanagi> Sure
 * <@teamcoltra> Okay so Oregon isn't here... so Georgia - Garod
 * <@teamcoltra> err jarod_
 * <jarod_> no changes in GA
 * <jarod_> Still working on getting things together to get registered
 * <@teamcoltra> I assume that's it?
 * <@teamcoltra> :)
 * <@kusanagi> Hooray
 * <jarod_> I may need some help with that, I will get with everyone if need be
 * <@teamcoltra> I can call you if you need help
 * <@teamcoltra> Rush isn't here so New York is up next
 * <@kusanagi> Help as in USPP, or GAPP?
 * <Rush> I am so here!
 * <jarod_> Thank you! I will let you know.. I was hoping to get information Monday but it's going very slow
 * <@kusanagi> Rush is here
 * <@teamcoltra> Oh sory, kusanagi said you were not going to be here so I didn't look
 * <Rush> We got back earlier than expected, about 8PM
 * <@kusanagi> He was talking..
 * back
 * <Rush> Okay, Florida. We're pretty much the same as we were last week. Nothing new to report.
 * <@teamcoltra> Okay thank you Rush
 * <@kusanagi> Yaay
 * <@teamcoltra> kusanagi or Zacqary ( Zacqary mentioned he was delegate tonight?)
 * <Zacqary> I can do it if you want to save typing, kusanagi.
 * <@kusanagi> No, not juuust yet
 * <@kusanagi> Welp
 * <@kusanagi> We has big news
 * <@kusanagi> BUT ITS A RUMOR
 * <@kusanagi> Zac and I are going to be in an article in the next issue of politik und kommunikation
 * <@kusanagi> If someone can find out when that is, since I can't seem to figure it out, please tell me
 * <@kusanagi> We also interviewed with radio france this week
 * <@kusanagi> And that wil be broadcast over the summer
 * <@teamcoltra> I will ask around the Germans (I assume P&K is german) for you.
 * <@kusanagi> Someone in the German party told me
 * <@kusanagi> And that was what I woke up to this am
 * <jarod_> Are we open to speak at the moment?
 * <@teamcoltra> :) good news to wake up to
 * <@teamcoltra> jarod_ yeah go ahead if it's in relation to NY's news
 * <@kusanagi> Yeah, right? XD
 * <jarod_> I will wait, thanks! :)
 * <@teamcoltra> kusanagi are you done? jokeefe will be next
 * sure
 * <OrionSteele> great news Kusanagi!
 * <@kusanagi> Uh
 * <@kusanagi> Trying to think
 * <@kusanagi> Zacqary, anything else?
 * <@teamcoltra> I would suggest something about the 18 year old school board member...
 * <Zacqary> We're rehearsing the Pirate Choir this weekend and interviewing with Joe Satran of the Huffington Post.
 * <Zacqary> There is no news about Josh Lafazan.
 * <Zacqary> I'm still trying to get him to respond to me.
 * <@teamcoltra> I think the rest of the PNC would still love to hear what you are persuing, it's quite exciting
 * <Zacqary> Oh, right.
 * <Zacqary> So, Josh Lafazan is an 18-year-old kid from my hometown of Syosset who got elected to the Syosset school board.
 * <Zacqary> On a platform of "why the hell is the superintendent being paid $500,000" and stuff like that.
 * <QuazarGuy> is he a Pirate?
 * <@kusanagi> Not yet ;)
 * <Zacqary> If I can have my way with him.
 * <Zacqary> ...that sounded wrong.
 * <Zacqary> Um.
 * <@kusanagi> LOL
 * <Zacqary> But yeah, I'm trying to arrange a meeting so we can "talk about things".
 * <QuazarGuy> a zuzzamen
 * <Zacqary> And "discuss political organizing at young ages".
 * <Zacqary> I'm not going to TELL him that I'm trying to recruit him, because that might scare him away.
 * <Zacqary> But I am.
 * <Zacqary> Oh, also, I talked to a high school class about the Pirate Party.
 * <Zacqary> They seemed interested.
 * <Zacqary> And that's about it.
 * <@teamcoltra> It's awesome no matter what though because he was basically running on pirate values, and was elected.
 * ++good
 * <@teamcoltra> :) Honorary Pirate if nothing else
 * <@teamcoltra> jokeefe can you give us whats been happening in your state?
 * yes, we will be marching in the Boston Pride Parade this Saturday with our banner and pirate ship
 * we also have a table.
 * <@kusanagi> Is there a picture of said ship?
 * not completed yet
 * will post when done
 * <@kusanagi> Yay
 * we are exploring helping a local non-profit with its ballot drive to get various advisory questions for state rep districts. the question is to ask state rep. to support a const. amendment to overturn citizens united
 * working on JP's campaign, exploring possible legal suit to challenge early deadline
 * <@teamcoltra> JP?
 * holding monthly pirate lunches
 * he is our candidate for state rep
 * looking to setup a hack day to get a liquid feedback server up
 * making connections, planning summer events. will probably be at the boston freedom rally which is pro-hemp fest in September
 * there is probably more I cannot think of, but that is what I have for now
 * <OrionSteele> euro pirates have sent us an email about creating an english language version of liquid feedback, said they were currently working on it...we will share that with you when we learn more
 * thanks, that would be great. saw that 2.0 is due out later in june
 * <@teamcoltra> Nuno is also working on a PHP version which is nearing completion
 * where is Nuno?
 * not at last i talked to him travis... he said he wanted to work on one but hadnt
 * <@kusanagi> Nuno.. that name sound familiar
 * <@teamcoltra> He is Brazillian, Portugese and German
 * <@teamcoltra> (from all 3 parties :P )
 * <@kusanagi> Oh god his accent
 * <Zacqary> So much accent.
 * <@teamcoltra> Okay on track...
 * <@teamcoltra> jokeefe?
 * <@teamcoltra> are you all finished?
 * yes
 * <@teamcoltra> Speaking of IT stuff
 * <@teamcoltra> matuck what's going on with IT board
 * nothing new
 * <@teamcoltra> Okay :)
 * <@teamcoltra> Progress on the Temporary PNC Objective list
 * <@teamcoltra> I believe it was jarod_ who brought this up, no?
 * <jarod_> yes
 * <jarod_> we have less than a month left
 * <jarod_> and i dont feel we have gotten very far
 * <jarod_> (Link: http://pirate-party.us/news/article/temporary-pirate-national-committee)http://pirate-party.us/news/article/temporary-pirate-national-committee
 * <@kusanagi> jarod_: I have to agree :/
 * <@kusanagi> Most of these meetings are, well, updates
 * <@kusanagi> And there is no reason why that can't be done on tuesdays
 * <jarod_> We may need to have extra meetings and have some of check list to get on the ball
 * <@teamcoltra> No state has proposed agenda points, and I don't have the authority to do it. Okay so let's establish which items we have already completed or are under way
 * <OrionSteele> can i toss in a few things real quick?
 * <@kusanagi> Sure, OrionSteele
 * <@teamcoltra> OrionSteele can speak, until there is any objection
 * <OrionSteele> :) thank you: 1. interested in finding out when/if california is eligible to be a member of the PNC officially
 * <@kusanagi> OrionSteele: you need to apply to be a member
 * <OrionSteele> oh ok, we will file the application this week then
 * <@kusanagi> I believe you need to announce the application
 * <@teamcoltra> OrionSteele can you discuss these points after we do this agenda item?
 * <@kusanagi> And then 1 week to review, then vote
 * <OrionSteele> yeah that's totally fine, sorry to interrupt, just wanted to give a heads up about our videotaped meetings starting next monday
 * <@teamcoltra> Or more specifically once we get to the Any Other Business, this is an important topic and I would prefer we not get side tracked
 * <Rush> Recorded meetings? That's a good idea
 * <OrionSteele> i understand, PNC objectives by July 4 is a tall order
 * <@kusanagi> Jul 3
 * <Sacha> Could I make a suggestion?
 * <@teamcoltra> Not unless it directly relates to the topic at hand
 * <Sacha> It does
 * <@teamcoltra> kk
 * <Sacha> Could we link to the objectives again? I didn't see a link and I feel a bit lost
 * <Sacha> it has been a while since i've looked at this
 * <jarod_> (Link: http://pirate-party.us/news/article/temporary-pirate-national-committee)http://pirate-party.us/news/article/temporary-pirate-national-committee
 * <@teamcoltra> Let's go line by line?
 * <Sacha> and then perhaps the group could allot certain weekly meetings to focus on one issue
 * <Sacha> then no one feels burned out
 * <@teamcoltra> Okay well let's go line by line and decide what needs to be done, or at least set a plan for each section, is there any objection?
 * <@teamcoltra> Seeing no objection
 * <@teamcoltra> 1. Establish a committee to collect all ideas and suggestions pertaining to the PNC, devise a basic and neutral structure, narrow these down to no more than 3 options per section, and arrange these in such a way that they can be voted on independently by the general membership of the US Pirate Party before the final product goes for official vote. The PNC temporary council would be responsible for monitoring and managing this committee to ensure deadlines
 * <@teamcoltra> are set and met.
 * <@kusanagi> Yeeaah... um.. I don't think that's een done at all..
 * <@teamcoltra> I am not fully sure I understand the whole text, I am hoping others are not replying because they are trying to wrap their heads around it too. So I believe we need to establish a committee which looks at how we can be better as a National Committee
 * <Zacqary> A committee comittee?
 * <QuazarGuy> we are that committe
 * <@kusanagi> No
 * <@kusanagi> More of like a..
 * <@kusanagi> Feedback?
 * <@teamcoltra> Which needs to be managed by kusanagi, myself, and QuazarGuy ? or is it managed by the PNC? Or is it the PNC?
 * <@kusanagi> I would think that is the pnc..
 * <@teamcoltra> Who was the original author?
 * <Sacha> It is not part of the PNC
 * <QuazarGuy> Anonymous
 * <Sacha> Either Grizzley or K'tetch
 * <Sacha> Us and QuazarGuy were the main people talking when the PNC was being created
 * <jarod_> devise a basic and neutral structure, narrow these down to no more than 3 options per section, and arrange these in such a way that they can be voted on independently by the general membership of the US Pirate Party before the final product goes for official vote
 * <Sacha> Due to this section "The PNC temporary council would be responsible for monitoring and managing this committee"
 * <jarod_> We are to create the structure of the PNC to have to voted upon
 * <Sacha> and how committees were originally thought of, it would be a seperate entity
 * <Sacha> In the beginning* the PNC would oversee committees such as y'all are doing with the IT committee right now
 * <Sacha> but you are not the IT committee, they are two seperate things
 * <Sacha> It would be another seperate committee that the PNC holds accountable based on time and results
 * <Sacha> but does not directly control the results, that would defeat the purpose
 * *<@teamcoltra> devise a basic and neutral structure, narrow these down to no more than 3 options per section, and arrange these in such a way that they can be voted on independently by the general membership of the US Pirate Party before the final product goes for official vote. *<= This is the part that confuses me most. 3 options for what? A section of what?
 * Sorry if that didn't post or if it was responded to
 * <Sacha> I believe this is referring to the constitution of the PNC
 * <QuazarGuy> I remember Grizzly was working on this several months ago
 * <Sacha> The structure, purpose, etc.
 * <Sacha> Yup
 * <Sacha> He has a draft, I have it in my google docs
 * <Sacha> there is a link to the constitution on the forum page
 * So this is more of a PNC Structure/Constitutional committee - that makes more sense.
 * <Sacha> (Link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aLMIpfAPMqIMRET12kNayo0j5kBFNyQOkT-9v0IGwYY/edit)https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aLMIpfAPMqIMRET12kNayo0j5kBFNyQOkT-9v0IGwYY/edit
 * <jarod_> exactly teamcoltra :)
 * <@kusanagi> Yay wording there
 * So let's establish one, and appoint a head who will be responsible to the PNC?
 * (I can't make motions so this is a state thing)
 * <Sacha> Can non-states nominate someone to be the head?
 * no
 * <QuazarGuy> who wants to be head?
 * not by default at least
 * Massachusetts moves that we establish a constitution committee and appoint co-chairs
 * I would propose to the PNC to first make a motion stating "I move to establish a committee which is in charge of creating a constitution for the operation of the PNC" or something along those words
 * That works too :)
 * Is there a second?
 * <QuazarGuy> second
 * Actually
 * <@kusanagi> Sure
 * <Rush> yes
 * that's not valid, because you are not passing anything like that.
 * <jarod_> yes
 * you have to split it into two
 * <Sacha> Can I ask another question?
 * jokeefe would you mind amending your motion to remove the last three words
 * why?
 * <QuazarGuy> have to split it in two
 * <@kusanagi> No
 * Because then you are creating a motion to seek to do somthing, instead of actually doing it
 * <QuazarGuy> I motion to establish a constitution committee
 * Massachusetts moves that we establish a constitution committee that consists of two co-chairs appointed by the PNC and any other members who are interested in joining. quorum shall consist of a majority of active members of the committee.
 * <@kusanagi> I second Mass.
 * QuazarGuy would you like to withdraw yours?
 * <QuazarGuy> yeah
 * Okay it has been moved and seconded
 * Massachusetts moves that we establish a constitution committee that consists of two co-chairs appointed by the PNC and any other members who are interested in joining. quorum shall consist of a majority of active members of the committee.
 * All in favour say aye
 * all against say nay
 * <QuazarGuy> aye
 * aye
 * Massachusetts say aye
 * s/say/says/g
 * <jarod_> aye
 * <@kusanagi> Aye
 * <Rush> aye
 * OrionSteele and Sacha youare free to vote on this
 * <Sacha> aye
 * <jarod_> going mobile, i'll try to stay withyall.. matuck vote for me if i miss anything
 * k
 * Okay I will call the vote, QuazarGuy
 * <QuazarGuy> 6 for
 * <QuazarGuy> my bad 5.5 for
 * Awesome so that passes. Now would someone like to make a motion to appoint these two co-chairs?
 * <@kusanagi> New York motions to appoint the co-chairs.
 * No, I mean you have to have someone. Again you can't make a motion of something you want to do...
 * We can discuss first who would be appointed
 * do we have any candidates?
 * The only people I believe to be exempt would be kusanagi, QuazarGuy, and myself
 * <Sacha> Can I ask a question
 * Sacha - if it's in relation to this, yes
 * <Sacha> Can we appoint people who are not here?
 * You can nominate anyone you want,
 * <Sacha> I think the two most qualified people are not in here right now
 * it would be up to a motion for them to pass
 * <Sacha> So I can nominate? Or do I have to harass a state?
 * <@kusanagi> Just nominate
 * do any states object? I don't see any problem
 * go for it
 * Yeah go ahead Sacha
 * <Sacha> I would like to nominate Erik Zoltan and Grizzley
 * My suggestion for a person would be Zac
 * <@kusanagi> Rush is my nom
 * Rush is a great choice as well in my opinion
 * (I was going to say "Rush and Zac")
 * <@kusanagi> Zac is also good.
 * <@kusanagi> (Get out of my head)
 * <@kusanagi> Lol
 * <Sacha> I think that someone who was in the discussions a few months ago should be in the head
 * <Sacha> which is why I said Grizzley, this was really his design so he knows more about then intended purpose than most
 * <@kusanagi> Well, if we're going on qualified
 * <@kusanagi> Rush pretty much has us all beat out
 * Does Grizzley even come around here anymore? I don't even recognize the screen name
 * <@kusanagi> Grizzly
 * <Rush> please, what are his qualifications?
 * <Sacha> Teamcoltra He generally goes by Brady
 * <@kusanagi> OH
 * <Sacha> lately*
 * Ah
 * <Rush> Brady Dibble, right?
 * <Sacha> Yup
 * Oh I would be all over that
 * <Sacha> Grizzley was how I met him
 * <QuazarGuy> he's almost done with his classes
 * Brady, Zac, or Brad would all be fine choices
 * <Sacha> I like the Rush, Brad tagteam simply because I know both of them more than Zac. So I have a bias in that way.
 * The reason I nominated Zac was because I think he has so much potential but hasn't really been put into a position to show us what he can do
 * <@kusanagi> He might not want to though
 * <@kusanagi> Considering he's up for election tomorrow as NYPP Operations Officer
 * <@kusanagi> But I will tell him right now.
 * I was just going to call him
 * <Rush> The Rush, Brad tagteam? I'm kinda against that
 * <Rush> Rush/Brady, yes
 * <QuazarGuy> asking Brady
 * <Rush> Me and myself? No
 * Brady seems very disinterested in having even MORE work, and his wife is probably even moreso against it
 * <@kusanagi> teamcoltra: he just left and I texted him
 * <@kusanagi> Yeah..
 * <Sacha> Rush I am sure you knew I forgot a 'y' :P
 * <Rush> I know, it happens a lot around here
 * <QuazarGuy> Brady said he intends to finish it by the deadline
 * <@kusanagi> There is someone else I kind of want to nominate..
 * <QuazarGuy> so he could co-chair
 * Does anyone else have suggestions for people? Otherwise it would be my suggestion to nominate and vote on 2 with 1 alternate
 * Erik has been doing some work on what a national org should look like so he will probably be on the committee anyway
 * <@kusanagi> Yeah, one more
 * <@kusanagi> Dan Gorski, from NYPP.
 * <Sacha> I like Erik as well
 * Oh and Erik was nominated
 * <Sacha> Can we mix and match as we wish? Because Brady/Erik may be a really good team if rush feels too busy
 * <Sacha> Oh, can I explain why I nominated him? So everyone knows why? (speaking on his behalf basically)
 * <QuazarGuy> I motion to appoint Brady and Erik as co-chairs with Brad Hall as a backup
 * <@kusanagi> No
 * <Rush> I agree with QuazarGuy
 * <@kusanagi> Erik isn't here
 * <Rush> Why not?
 * <Rush> ah
 * It's my intention to solve this with a preferential vote, unless people have objections. Where everyone will rank the nominees from 5 to 1 (5 being best) and the top 2 will be elected and 3rd will be the runner up
 * <@kusanagi> Can we at least notify those nominated?
 * <Rush> Right, most of those nominated aren't even here
 * he is on the road
 * <Sacha> Do we have numbers for all the people?
 * Yeah, do we want to hold off on voting and stuff until next week?
 * <@kusanagi> Yes
 * <Sacha> That is a great idea
 * <@kusanagi> NY motions to have votes next week
 * <QuazarGuy> we can do it by email?
 * I am just concerned that another week is another week closer to our deadline
 * I am not saying we should rush it
 * <QuazarGuy> the deadline is quite close
 * aye^
 * just suggesting people remember the deadline
 * <QuazarGuy> we have all great candidates
 * <Sacha> Hmm
 * <Rush> Can't we vote to push back the deadline?
 * how many candidates do we have?
 * Rush I don't see why not
 * <Sacha> I agree with Rush I think that is best
 * <@kusanagi> I think 6
 * k
 * (and if we have 6 then obviously my voting system would be 1-6 ranking)
 * <QuazarGuy> Brady said he could have it ready by the deadline and will work on it whether or not he's chair
 * lets ask who is interested in the co-chair positions, if only 2 then problem is solved
 * <@kusanagi> Right
 * <@kusanagi> Emails sent to Zac and Dan
 * ranking is good.
 * <Sacha> I can email Erik
 * <Rush> who are the six?
 * <Rush> Not the Sinister Six!
 * <QuazarGuy> Brady, Brad, Erik, Zac, Dan
 * If we really want to be democratic, we can do it like STV -- but I think that would be a lot of effort for somthing more trivial
 * <Sacha> Erik, Brady, Rush, Zac, Dan.....
 * <Sacha> I don't think of anyone else :/
 * <@kusanagi> I just counted them
 * <@kusanagi> Fuuu
 * Oh sorry there was a motion on the floor, to vote next week... is there a second?
 * <@kusanagi> Why can't I remember the 6th
 * (I missed it in the discussion, sorry kusanagi )
 * <QuazarGuy> second
 * All in favour of voting next week?
 * <Sacha> Kusanagi Are you confusing Grizzley and Brady thinking they are two different people?
 * <QuazarGuy> aye
 * <Sacha> Aye
 * <@kusanagi> No, I'm not. Going by rl names
 * <@kusanagi> Aye
 * aye
 * aye
 * <Rush> aye
 * Okay calling it
 * <Sacha> kusanagi there are only 5 then, at least from what I see in my log
 * QuazarGuy
 * <QuazarGuy> 5 for
 * Okay to ensure no one gets left out, who is contacting whom?
 * <Rush> I'll contact Rush
 * QuazarGuy 5 or 5.5?
 * <Sacha> I will contact Erik, to tell him why I nominated him :P
 * <QuazarGuy> I don't remember how to count two at-larges
 * <Sacha> .5
 * <Sacha> It would be 4.5, 5 for
 * Who else is at large though?
 * <Sacha> 1 halfy
 * <QuazarGuy> matuck
 * matuck is georgia
 * <QuazarGuy> oh
 * <Sacha> No other at large in here
 * <Rush> I think the person who did the nominating should write the bio for the person they nominated
 * <QuazarGuy> ok so 5.5
 * <Sacha> Rush that is a good idea
 * <@kusanagi> No
 * <Sacha> Why not?
 * <@kusanagi> They need to accept the nomination first, no?
 * <Rush> Because it means she would have to write my bio
 * <Sacha> Right
 * <@kusanagi> That too
 * <Sacha> So
 * <Rush> lol
 * <Sacha> it would mean the nominating person contacts them, if they say yes the nominating person writes bio
 * <Sacha> it would mean the nominating person contacts them, if they say yes the nominating person writes bio
 * <Sacha> I think it would be interesting and more telling to have "Why should you vote for this person" Then "why you should vote for me"
 * <Sacha> It also corrects for a humble bias
 * Well realistically if the state representatives go back to their state and discuss it and decide who they are going to be voting on as a state (like they should)
 * by the time the bios arrive next week... the states should have made a decision
 * <@kusanagi> Exactly
 * (not saying that's how it actually works, but it's how it is supposed to)
 * <Sacha> We could have the bios due by friday
 * <Sacha> send them to the reps
 * <Sacha> to discuss with their states
 * <@kusanagi> If the nominee wants to accept th nomination, it's best to have them write it. I have a million doctors appointments tomorrow
 * <@kusanagi> I can't write for Rush
 * It's my suggestion that if you want to campaign for, or post information about the person you are nominating between now and then you can. However, let's not set more beuacracy of things we must do or anything like that
 * <QuazarGuy> do we need bios?
 * <Sacha> We could have someone else write the bio that supported Rush
 * <Rush> lol
 * <Sacha> Hmm, I really like the idea of a bio
 * <Rush> I accept
 * <QuazarGuy> WA is ready to vote
 * there is no vote
 * <@kusanagi> I don't think teamcoltra wants to do it
 * <Sacha> because not everyone knows why a person should be voted
 * I don't have the authority to say we should or shouldn't
 * <Sacha> or knows the person
 * <Sacha> Such as your nomination for Dan Kusanagi
 * I am simply suggesting that it wouldn't be what I do
 * I would do*
 * <Sacha> I think his problem is the beauocracy
 * <Sacha> We could also do a google doc
 * It's really just the mandate of it, I am suggesting this is something that can be done without an official motion on it
 * <Sacha> We need a way to tell people who the final nominees are
 * <@kusanagi> Ok
 * <@kusanagi> Mailing list
 * <Sacha> and people could pitch their nomination if they want
 * <@kusanagi> And Zac accepts
 * Do we want to set a confirmation deadline?
 * <Sacha> kusanagi Google doc link to mailing list?
 * <@kusanagi> NY proposes a confirmation date for Saturday 2100 EDT
 * Is that a motion? (I am assuming so and waiting for a second)
 * <@kusanagi> Yes, I'm a derp
 * Hardly, I probably am just being a stickler
 * any seconds?
 * <Rush> second
 * MA offers a friendly amendment of sunday 2100 edt
 * <Rush> I accept too
 * kusanagi do you accept that amendment?
 * <@kusanagi> Sure
 * any other debate / amendments / discussion?
 * or would we like to vote?
 * <QuazarGuy> vote
 * All in favour?
 * <@kusanagi> Voooote
 * <@kusanagi> Aye
 * <QuazarGuy> aye
 * aye
 * <Sacha> aye
 * matuck Rush ?
 * <Rush> AYE
 * aye
 * called
 * QuazarGuy
 * <QuazarGuy> 5.5 for
 * Now I have a proposal of my own: could we agree to have it be a closed election?
 * IE we can't see each others votes
 * usually any time you are electing someone to a position, you would use a closed ballot
 * <QuazarGuy> we should make that a rule
 * <QuazarGuy> I motion for it to be a closed ballot election
 * This would, however, exclude non-members from voting -- especially if we used a democratic system like rank voting, because there would be no way to average their ranked votes
 * <@kusanagi> That's not a rule??
 * <Sacha> No
 * <Sacha> That is in direct violation of the statement
 * <Sacha> the original statement of the committee
 * <QuazarGuy> it wouldn't exclude at-large
 * votes by representatives should not be secret
 * That's true, sorry I was merging two ideas together
 * <QuazarGuy> it'll just take me an hour to do the math
 * <Sacha> Nope, never mind it doesn't go directly against it
 * Even if it was public, ranked voting wouldn't work for non-members
 * Sacha can you quote exactly what you are saying it violates
 * <QuazarGuy> on second thought, jokeefe is right, votes shouldn't be secret and shouldn't be taken personally because they are group votes
 * <Sacha> I retract my disagreement, as it says the PNC will create the group
 * <Sacha> Teamcoltra A misinterpretation, look a little bit above your comment and see where I said nevermind
 * But it could still be used to go against the groups that are voting.
 * <Sacha> The entire proposal will be voted on the general group
 * <QuazarGuy> I rescind my motion
 * Lets say a NY rep and a FL rep get elected but they had been voted against by WA
 * if we are concerned about a state gaming the system, mail the ballots to a neutral party who closes the vote when all ballots are in or by a date/time
 * They could, perhaps, make the rules more harsh towards WA
 * then post the ballots and do the match
 * math
 * <Sacha> Couldn't we just do 'ayes
 * <Sacha> like we do now?
 * it isn't a vote against. it is a ranking
 * jokeefe well that's why the current council cannot run for these positions
 * because we will be managing the election and that would be a conflict
 * At least that's why I propose that we can't
 * (and by council I mean kusanagi, QuazarGuy, and myself, not the full PNC)
 * <QuazarGuy> should I have my backup make the vote?
 * Probably would be best
 * <QuazarGuy> good to know before we get to next Wed
 * Sacha - the problem with "ayes" are they are undemocratic for elections.
 * <Sacha> I'm confused
 * You are punished for voting for someone who has a lesser chance at winning
 * <Sacha> Are we going to weigh the member rankings then?
 * That is my suggestion
 * <@kusanagi> My backup is Zac.
 * <Sacha> How would we do that?
 * kusanagi lol well that would even be worse, so I would suggest you make the vote yourself :P
 * <@kusanagi> Averaging
 * <@kusanagi> Yep
 * <QuazarGuy> borda count?
 * <@kusanagi> Ah well
 * Sacha it's easy to do math
 * if you rank 5 4 3 2 1
 * then you just add the numbers
 * <Sacha> Teamcoltra If you rank what?
 * each person running
 * <Sacha> I am asking about member of PNC v. non member
 * <Sacha> or are non members not allowed to vote?
 * Which is why I am suggesting non-members don't vote
 * <QuazarGuy> I would do a round for at-large and turn it into one vote
 * We could do that too
 * Add up each persons total from the at large group
 * then rank it 5 4 3 2 1
 * the at-large rep votes as the non-member states want
 * <Sacha> Okay
 * <Sacha> Jokeefe Yeah
 * <Sacha> Jokeefe well the at-large isn't one rep, it is multiple people
 * guys i got to go
 * gn
 * <Sacha> nn
 * so, multiple people get to decide :-)
 * <Sacha> jokeefe it is like that all the at large people vote and they each get a fractional vote
 * who is the at-large rep?
 * <Sacha> Like i'm at large so I get a .5 vote but if there were 3 at large people I would get .33
 * <Sacha> there isn't one rep
 * <QuazarGuy> I can handle the at-large vote
 * <Sacha> because at-large is anyone who isn't allowed full member status
 * then figure out the ranking among yourselves and have someone put it forward.
 * <Sacha> jokeefe we are not a state, or a group
 * <QuazarGuy> I got it
 * <QuazarGuy> I can make the at-large vote work
 * <Sacha> QuazarGuy yay!
 * So can we agree on ranked voting?
 * (we need a motion)
 * <Sacha> Jokeefe At large is anyone that isn't given full member status, not people that don't have states.
 * (and I would suggest someone make the motion to be a general motion that we use for all elections of people for positions)
 * <QuazarGuy> I motion to use ranked voting to determine the co-chairs of the constitution committee
 * <QuazarGuy> let me rephrase
 * <@kusanagi> Second
 * <QuazarGuy> I motion to use ranked voting to determine the co-chairs of committees
 * <Rush> second
 * So I motion to use ranked voting to determine the co-chairs of committees has been moved and seconded
 * any conversation? amendments?
 * <QuazarGuy> don't think so
 * <Sacha> no
 * All in favour?
 * aye
 * <QuazarGuy> aye
 * <@kusanagi> Aye
 * <Sacha> aye
 * <Rush> aye
 * Calling it
 * <QuazarGuy> 4.5 for
 * Great.
 * Last motion (at least that I ahve, to suggest) will someone make a motion on it either being closed or open
 * so we are all clear
 * (I reaffirm my strong belief that every time you are voting on a person, it is a closed vote. This is a requirement of the PPI, which also use delegates, and is even a legal requirement in some countries in Europe -- even for groups like ours)
 * <Sacha> I do not know what the difference between the two are
 * <QuazarGuy> open means you know what state voted what
 * One people see your vote
 * one it's private
 * (open everyone sees, closed it's private)
 * "I move to have closed elections in this upcoming vote for co-chairs" "I move to have open elections in this upcoming vote for co-chairs" (I will make it copy/pastable for a state :P )
 * <@kusanagi> Easy mode
 * <@kusanagi> Lol
 * if private, the ballot is seen, but not who submitted it. if open, both the ballot and the state which submittted it is seen
 * Massachusetts makes a motion that the ballot will be open.
 * is there a second? if you second it, you are not agreeing, just saying we can talk about it)
 * <Rush> Florida makes the motion that it needs to leave because it's pretty late here and has to get its beauty sleep
 * second
 * <QuazarGuy> second
 * <@kusanagi> Hahahahahaahahhahahahahah
 * Whose seconding what?
 * <Rush> lol
 * <@kusanagi> I second rush
 * <QuazarGuy> the first motion on the table
 * mass. cannot second its own motion ;-)
 * Awesome, let's get through this
 * <Sacha> si senor
 * <Rush> How you guys do the election is up to you guys, since I'm going to be on the ballot, I don't want to have a hand in its creation
 * <Sacha> Ahh, I am fine with private
 * <Sacha> Well....
 * <Sacha> I unno
 * <QuazarGuy> an open ballot allows the elected to be biased
 * <Sacha> how will states be able to hold their rep accountable if they do not know how they voted?
 * I believe that the US Senate has an open ballot for confirmations
 * :) Let's pattern ourselves after the US Senate ;)
 * <@kusanagi> The rep should be confering with the state
 * aye
 * Yeah if you are a rep of a state
 * then the state should have a little faith
 * <QuazarGuy> I'm not terribly fond of the US congress
 * considering they chose you to represent them
 * <Sacha> Yes
 * <QuazarGuy> we could give all voters a key
 * we are for transparency yes?
 * <Sacha> but I am fearful of having no way to know if they voted as they said they did
 * <Sacha> even pirates can be corrupt
 * jokeefe we are for transparency, but we should also be for fair and unbiased elections
 * <QuazarGuy> we put the key next to the vote but it's only know to those in the state
 * We can do that too
 * <Sacha> What is the concern with public elections causing bias
 * how would it be unbiased?
 * Im not really a member... Im not sure if im allowed to speak right now.... And this sounda crazy... But why not both open and closed?
 * <QuazarGuy> if the elected can see who elected them and who voted against them, they can make decisions against or for the voting parties
 * If any person knows that a state voted against them, they can try to (even subconsciencly) make rules that are against that state.
 * It also could create a system where a person puts undue influence on a state (somehow?) to make them vote for you
 * <Sacha> Is there a way to share it with the members in the state
 * Sacha yes
 * <Sacha> but not those that are elected?
 * <QuazarGuy> the key I mentioned
 * <Sacha> Not through the rep(
 * We could give a key to each vote
 * <Sacha> How would the key work?
 * and then share that key with members of the state for them to pass around
 * <QuazarGuy> at-large members will have to sign up for a key
 * Lol, there goes my opinion up the screen. Oh well
 * <Sacha> hmmm that still relies on a just rep though
 * such as system exists now?
 * itspara I think a key is a open and closed ballot itspara
 * we are agreeing with you
 * Oh... Ok
 * <Sacha> If we had a way to go around the rep with the key, then i'd be fine
 * <Sacha> and think it is a great idea
 * <QuazarGuy> it depends on the number of voters
 * <QuazarGuy> if it's like 20 voters I can do it manually
 * keys can be sent around to other states
 * We don't have any more than 20 states
 * not really secure
 * jokeefe but that's up for a state to control their own privacy
 * That's not the responsibility of the PNC
 * <Sacha> Hmm how about this
 * <QuazarGuy> lol assymetrical keys will be more difficult
 * we are making this too complicated
 * <Sacha> For this election we do closed, but part of the responsibilities for the committee will be to find a way to reach a compromise?
 * <Sacha> Or they will discuss it as part of the perm. pnc?
 * not a friendly amendment
 * That would need to be a full amendment Sacha
 * which needs to be raised by a state
 * <QuazarGuy> I think it should be closed for this one because of the major effects the constitution committee has on the future of the PNC
 * (friendly amendments make tweaks, full amendments change the meaning of the motion)
 * <Sacha> Just a suggestion, not an amendment
 * <Sacha> The temp pnc doesn't have the power to rule of the perm pnc
 * <Sacha> that is the point of this committee
 * QuazarGuy would you like to make an amendment?
 * <Sacha> so anything the temp pnc votes on will end when it does
 * (changing the word "open" to "closed")
 * can we call it secret please, that is the common term
 * <QuazarGuy> haha yes
 * secret ballot
 * Current motion: Massachusetts makes a motion that the ballot will be open.
 * <QuazarGuy> I would like to amend it to say closed instead of open
 * would you like to say "secret" instead of "closed"
 * jokeefe is correct "secret" is the proper word
 * <QuazarGuy> sure
 * The motion is to make a motion?
 * Secret sounds biased to make it seem like a worse option imo
 * the motion is to change open to secret in the motion MAss. put forward
 * there is an amendment to change the motion of Massachusetts from the wording " the ballot will be open." to "the ballot will be secret."
 * any seconds?
 * closed minds ;-)
 * not saying anyone has one
 * itspara it's the actual rule for it
 * word for it*
 * <@kusanagi> Second
 * (Though I am sure closed is commonly used too)
 * Is this open to ppl like me?
 * <QuazarGuy> kusi seconded
 * only if you represent a state
 * yes, but we now can have discussion
 * <Sacha> itspara yeah, it will be the same vote procedures
 * <QuazarGuy> lol itspara you are allowed to vote yes
 * Ok, just checking.
 * jokeefe he does
 * <Sacha> Itspara same at large*
 * at-large
 * ok, only one for for at-large
 * only one vote for at large
 * <QuazarGuy> yeah
 * Do we want to have a discussion on this? or quickly vote on the amendment (we would still have to pass the motion as a whole after this vote)
 * Mass. moves to a vote
 * any objections (I would rather not vote to vote)
 * <QuazarGuy> yes
 * <QuazarGuy> I like to just vote
 * <@kusanagi> Seconded
 * then no would have been a better reply, I was waiting for an objection :P
 * okay lets vote: all in favour of hte amendment
 * <QuazarGuy> aye
 * "the ballot will be secret"
 * <@kusanagi> Aye
 * horsey noise, err. nay
 * <Sacha> aye
 * sorry have to use that once a day
 * Abstain as I feel the wording is biased
 * Okay lets call it
 * For the record we are just barely at quorum
 * <QuazarGuy> 2 for, at-large for, 1 against
 * *ABSTAIN
 * Okay the amendment passes do we want further discussion on the motion as a whole?
 * so I could have stopped the vote by leaving, dang ;-)
 * i didnt say against
 * mass. did
 * itspara jokeefe was against it
 * Oh, oopsies
 * <QuazarGuy> itspara I got yours in at-large
 * your vote simply was counted as "NULL"
 * np
 * (in programming terms)
 * Ok then, im loopy from a party
 * Okay so do we want to discuss further?
 * or vote?
 * Yay nullness!
 * count(null) = 1
 * mass, moves to a vote
 * on the amended motion
 * I am sure I heard a second somewhere :P all in favour?
 * mass. abstains
 * <QuazarGuy> aye
 * (this will be voting on a secret ballot)
 * itspara kusanagi matuck  Sacha
 * itspara recieved ping
 * itspara mispelt a word
 * <Sacha> huh
 * if kusanagi doesn't vote this vote will fail due to lack of quorum
 * mass. would like to go to sleep ...
 * <Sacha> 1 sec
 * <@kusanagi> Aye
 * mass. thinks FLPP had a good idea. ….
 * <Sacha> what are we voting on
 * <Sacha> going to sleep?
 * On the amended motion to have a secret vote
 * <Sacha> I'm for that
 * We are never sleeping
 * <QuazarGuy> what's FLPP's idea?
 * no, because there is one last important motion I am hoping you guys will agree to after this passes. (I would like us to extend the deadline at least 2 weeks)
 * QuazarGuy sleeping
 * I am calling the vote
 * collectively, but parts of the whole do
 * <QuazarGuy> oh :p
 * jokeefe *<3 That's amazing
 * <QuazarGuy> 2 for, 1 abstain, at-large for
 * Anyway, we can motion to adjourn, but I would really suggest you guys pushing the deadline out 2 weeks before doing so
 * It's up to a state to motion
 * <Sacha> Why don't we let the committee get together and decide if they need 2 more weeks
 * <Sacha> and then peeps can vote on it then
 * <@kusanagi> Yeah
 * <@kusanagi> We're losing people
 * <QuazarGuy> agreed
 * <@kusanagi> We can't keep going
 * 2 more weeks until what?
 * Deadline, but I think that's fair if nothing else we can extend it next week
 * <@kusanagi> Extend the temp pnc for 2 weeks
 * A wild matuck appears
 * Well regardless I need /some/ motion
 * fight or flight as they say ;)
 * <@kusanagi> NY motions to adjourn
 * Mass. 2nds
 * All in favour ?
 * <QuazarGuy> I motion to move VPN to the next meeting and adjourn
 * <QuazarGuy> nay
 * <@kusanagi> Aye
 * pirate noise, I mean, AYE!!!!
 * Ayê
 * <Sacha> AYE
 * 2nd on QuazarGuy's motion
 * <QuazarGuy> lol
 * Unfortunately the motion has passed so there can be no more motions or even seconds. Sorry I didn't give you enough time QuazarGuy
 * I just wanted to let everyone get out of here
 * since the VPN is my addition, and I make the agenda
 * ... I am sure it will find it's way onto next weeks ;)
 * <QuazarGuy> well you can throw it on next week anyway
 * signing off. have a great week.  we'll send you pics/video of the march.  folks are encouraged to join us on Saturday!
 * g'night jokeefe
 * thanks for being awesome