PNC 10/10/12


 * Agenda PNC MEETING
 * 10/10/2012 21:00h EDT
 * IRC: irc.pirateirc.net
 * Room: #pnc
 * Wiki: http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_10/10/12

Attending

 * Jarod Smith, GA
 * Erik Zoltan, MA
 * Francis Klein, WI
 * Zachary Adam Green, NY
 * Eric Fromm, OR

Excused

 * Florida

Unexcused

 * WA
 * CA

At Large Members of the PNC

 * Caleb Laneslag, MN

Officers of the PNC

 * Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, First Mate
 * Travis McCrea, NY, Captain

Proceedings
Meeting opened at: 9:01 pm EDT by Travis McCrea Meeting closed at: 10:56 pm EDT by Travis McCrea {due to lack of quorum)
 * Meeting chaired by Travis McCrea
 * Acting Secretary for this meeting is Amanda Johnson
 * Quorum is established: 5 Members out of 8 present
 * Logging Enabled: Yes

Review of previous minutes
http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_9/26/12

Massachusetts

 * Dinner and drinks with some German Pirates
 * Recent Talk by Gregory Engels of PPDE / PPI co-chair.
 * Opening liquid feedback for use in determining positions on 2012 ballot questions.
 * Crypto party coming up

Oregon

 * Organizing a voice chat for the Oregon party

Georgia

 * No news

Florida

 * Haven't been able to make progress on NSH 2
 * In about the same state as last week's meeting

New York

 * New York controls the PNC as Travis moved there
 * A great new snazzy website at nypirateparty.org
 * Talked to people about running as pirates in 2013
 * Snazzy site includes real pictures of real people in the real NYPP

Wisconsin

 * Nothing to report

IT Committee

 * 4.5 hour long IT meeting last night
 * decided to restructure the forum with phpBB3, and have it integrate with the mailing lists, so that we can centralized communication, while giving people what format they want to communicate in
 * sticking with mediawiki
 * new website shall be wordpress
 * discussed prospective projects such as providing hosting for State Pirate Parties in the early stages of forming
 * decided to go without CloudFlare for now, until we have the financing to support $20/month for having CloudFlare with SSL
 * In the meantime, we'll just have direct connectivity, and soon have HTTPS and IPv6 live.
 * Possible IT standards were discussed
 * The idea of a website content committee was discussed and then moved to AOB by the captain


 * Motion to appoint Caleb Laneslag head of the IT committee
 * Motions passes, 4 for

Bylaws Committee

 * Motion to vote on bylaws
 * Motion passes 3 for, 1 against, at large against
 * Motion to accept Sacha's bylaws proposal seen at https://pnc.piratenpad.de/amendedbylawsoutline
 * Motion passes, 4 for, at large against


 * Motion to adjourn due to lack of quorum

Agenda Items

 * Meeting Times - MA


 * Creation of a Content Committee


 * Amending the Constituion for IT Standards

AOB

 * Meeting Times - MA


 * Next meeting: October 17th, 2012 at 9PM EDT
 * Meeting closed:

Logs

 * [21:00] <@TeamColtra> Hey everyone
 * [21:00]  Hell
 * [21:00]  Hello*
 * [21:00]  Hi
 * [21:01] <@kusanagi> yo
 * [21:01] <@TeamColtra> Let's call this meeting to order and do roll call
 * [21:01]  hi
 * [21:01]  Hay
 * [21:01] Erik Zoltan, Massachusetts
 * [21:01]  *waves*
 * [21:01]  jarod smith ga
 * [21:01] <@kusanagi> Lindsay-Anne Brunner, NY, FM
 * [21:01]  Francis Klein, WI
 * [21:01]  Caleb Langeslag, MN
 * [21:01]  Zacqary Adam Green, NY
 * [21:02]  Eric Fromm, OR
 * [21:02]  I might have to leave early - Hopefully the Bosun will be here before I do.
 * [21:02] == jarod *[~yaaic@49-65-937-966.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #pnc
 * [21:02]  Amanda Johnson, Michgan
 * [21:03]  Also could you give all full members the '+' it makes voting a lot easier for me
 * [21:04] == mode/#pnc *[+v Fromm] by TeamColtra
 * [21:04] == mode/#pnc *[+v Zacqary] by TeamColtra
 * [21:04] == mode/#pnc *[+v HariSeldon] by TeamColtra
 * [21:04] <@TeamColtra> voice jarod_
 * [21:04] == mode/#pnc *[+v jarod_] by TeamColtra
 * [21:04] == mode/#pnc *[+v mildbeard] by TeamColtra
 * [21:04]  Hariseldon, what is your name and state please
 * [21:04] <+HariSeldon> Francis Klein, WI
 * [21:04] <@TeamColtra> *[21:01:40]  Francis Klein, WI
 * [21:05] <Sacha> Oh jk you did, so sorry <3
 * [21:06] Nick Desalvo, MD
 * [21:07] <@TeamColtra> Okay well let's do the review of last meetings minutes
 * [21:07] <@TeamColtra> I believe that was the 19th meeting correct?
 * [21:07] <@TeamColtra> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_9/19/12
 * [21:07] <@kusanagi> no
 * [21:07] <@kusanagi> 26th
 * [21:07] <@kusanagi> you zac and i did the meeting from my house, remember?
 * [21:08] <@TeamColtra> Oh
 * [21:08] <@TeamColtra> indeed
 * [21:08] <@TeamColtra> http://www.pirate-party.us/wiki/PNC_9/26/12
 * [21:08] <@kusanagi> how could you forget
 * [21:09] <CalebL*[laptop]> Abuse! Abuse! He's blocking out memories due to abuse!
 * [21:09] <CalebL*[laptop]> :P
 * [21:09] <@TeamColtra> My brain is struggling to function on the East Coast.
 * [21:09] <@TeamColtra> and there might have been abuse
 * [21:10] <@kusanagi> you lie!\
 * [21:10] <@TeamColtra> that I am blacking out
 * [21:10] <@TeamColtra> Okay let's go to state reports
 * [21:10] <@TeamColtra> Let's start with mildbeard
 * [21:10] <+mildbeard> Since the last meeting we had an impromptu gathering over dinner and drinks, together with some German Pirates who happened to be in town.
 * [21:11] <+mildbeard> Last Friday we had a public talk by Gregory Engels of the German Pirate Party, co-chair of Pirate Parties International.
 * [21:11] <+mildbeard> We are opening up our Liquid Feedback site to help get input from our supporters about upcoming ballot questions.
 * [21:11] <+mildbeard> And we have a crypto party coming up, which has multiple workshops/talks about how to protect your privacy online.
 * [21:12] <+mildbeard> That's it for now, I think.
 * [21:12] <@TeamColtra> Washington didn't check in, so let's go to Oregon Fromm
 * [21:12] <@TeamColtra> (thanks mildbeard )
 * [21:12] <+Fromm> ok
 * [21:13] <+Fromm> We are trying to organize a voice chat meeting for the Oregon party. Other than that nothing is new
 * [21:13] <@TeamColtra> Well still exciting!
 * [21:13] <@TeamColtra> Thanks Fromm
 * [21:13] <@TeamColtra> Georgia / jarod_
 * [21:13] <@TeamColtra> (and or jarod )
 * [21:14] <@TeamColtra> oay
 * [21:15] <@TeamColtra> New York / Zacqary
 * [21:16] <+Zacqary> Well, first of all, Travis McCrea is now one of us. We control the whole PNC now. Muahahahahaha.
 * [21:16] <+Zacqary> Two weeks ago he helped us set up a new snazzy website, and do some flyering and canvassing in New York City.
 * [21:17] <@kusanagi> nypirateparty.org
 * [21:17] <+Zacqary> We also talked to two people interested in running as Pirates in 2013.
 * [21:17] <+Zacqary> A mayorial candidate for NYC, and a candidate for Town Councilman in Brookhaven.
 * [21:18] <+Zacqary> Not finalized yet, but we're hoping everything goes smoothly and that we can announce Jason Sullivan for Town Council right after Election Day. (His idea for the timing)
 * [21:18] <@TeamColtra> http://nypirateparty.org/engagement/ <= Not just stock images on the site, you can even see Zac talking to real people
 * [21:18] <+mildbeard> awesome
 * [21:18] <+Zacqary> And I think that sums it up.
 * [21:18] <@kusanagi> REAL people
 * [21:20] <@TeamColtra> Wisconsin and HariSeldon
 * [21:20] <+HariSeldon> nothing to report
 * [21:20] <@TeamColtra> Okay then let's go onto committees
 * [21:21] <@TeamColtra> first up we have the IT Committee sporting an energetic young lad, and a hat which really brings it all together
 * [21:22] <+jarod_> GA - no news btw
 * [21:22] <CalebL*[laptop]> Thank you for the generous introduction;
 * [21:22] <CalebL*[laptop]> We had an extensive IT committee last night, and got plenty of topics covered, the meeting was over 4.5 hours in duration
 * [21:24] <CalebL*[laptop]> We've decided to restructure the forum with phpBB3, and have it integrate with the mailing lists, so that we can centralized communication, while giving people what format they want to communicate in
 * [21:24] <CalebL*[laptop]> Decided to continue with MediaWiki, as usual
 * [21:24] <CalebL*[laptop]> And intend to restructure the website with WordPress
 * [21:25] <CalebL*[laptop]> As well as some potential projects, such as providing hosting for State Pirate Parties in the early stages of forming
 * [21:26] <CalebL*[laptop]> We've decided to go without CloudFlare for now, until we have the financing to support $20/month for having CloudFlare with SSL
 * [21:26] <CalebL*[laptop]> In the meantime, we'll just have direct connectivity, and soon have HTTPS and IPv6 live.
 * [21:27] <CalebL*[laptop]> Lastly, I bring up a few prompts relevant to the PNC, as it was discussed that content is the responsibility of the PNC
 * [21:28] <CalebL*[laptop]> Therefore I ask if you have a specific person decided yet, or do you have any gameplan on doing so?
 * [21:29] <Sacha> May I offer a suggestion, or must I ask permission to speak before offering a suggestion?
 * [21:29] <+mildbeard> move that sacha be given a voice
 * [21:30] <@TeamColtra> I think we can do that
 * [21:30] <@TeamColtra> if anyone objects jsut say something
 * [21:31] <Sacha> So should I go now... or...
 * [21:32] <@TeamColtra> ... yes
 * [21:33] <Sacha> Okay, so our new mantra is 'be bold'
 * [21:33] <Sacha> So making some one in charge of it wouldn't make too much sense with that
 * [21:33] BE BOLD
 * [21:33] <Sacha> My suggestion is to send out emails or alert people and whoever wants to step up as the head can
 * [21:33] * Zacqary presses Control-B
 * [21:33] <@kusanagi> what do you mean exactly?
 * [21:33] Well, It would make sense to put someone in charge, because then the bold people would see who they need to work with
 * [21:34] <+mildbeard> Are we talking about the PNC supplying info on the site?
 * [21:34] <Sacha> True, but who would we put in charge and how do we decide that they have the qualifications?
 * [21:34] <Sacha> Let's be honest, at least three people have been actively discussing content
 * [21:34] <+HariSeldon> so you are saying we ask for volunteers instead of finding someone.
 * [21:34] <Sacha> Yes exactly
 * [21:35] <+mildbeard> Sometimes it is better to ask forgiveness than permission.
 * [21:35] <@TeamColtra> Sacha I want people to be bold in submitting things and feeling empowered to act. I don't know if I want to just give everyone the keys to every public part of our website
 * [21:35] <Sacha> just say that we need it and then go for it
 * [21:35] <CalebL*[laptop]> If you assign a person, they have responsibility. If people passively volunteer, they can disappear and just shrug it off, as they usually assume the others would have gotten to it
 * [21:35] <Sacha> It is simply content, they would still need to work with IT to see it done
 * [21:35] <Sacha> they just ahve the ideas
 * [21:35] <@TeamColtra> We were talking about press releases and news items, and how we should just let anyone submit content, and then have a trusted group of people who can approve them
 * [21:35] <Sacha> Caleb I point at the Bylaws committee, assigning means nothing
 * [21:35] <CalebL*[laptop]> And yes, there is the increased risk
 * [21:36] <+mildbeard> The bigger risk is to have a website with no content.
 * [21:36] <Sacha> Teamcoltra this is simply content, it would be a committee so if you are concerned you can join and discuss it with other concerned people and come to an agreement
 * [21:36] <Sacha> We could all join it, if it concerns you then pop in and say your piece
 * [21:37] <CalebL*[laptop]> There should be a contact in which people can coordinate with
 * [21:37] <Sacha> I think that assigning someone causes two possible problems 1. The assigned person may drop out anyway and then there is no benefit, they did not join due to passion they were simply assigned 2. The other people may not like them and it may cause strife by already having a hierarchy
 * [21:37] <CalebL*[laptop]> Because a lot of the time, there may end up being conflicting efforts
 * [21:37] <Sacha> Yes, but let the contact come forward, instead of assigning one
 * [21:37] <@TeamColtra> I hate creating committees and saying "this is what it will do" if you want to have a committee, then do the work of a committee first...
 * [21:38] <@TeamColtra> and then you will be given more an more access as your committee matures
 * [21:38] <CalebL*[laptop]> If the assigned person drops out, they give up their status
 * [21:38] <CalebL*[laptop]> And if there's an assigned person, then there's someone to check up on, to see if they're fulfilling their role
 * [21:38] <Sacha> Caleb What if they simply stop showing up? What is an acceptable amount of neglect before they are replaced?
 * [21:39] <CalebL*[laptop]> When they aren't obviously doing their role?
 * [21:39] <CalebL*[laptop]> and when the PNC can strip them of that role, by vote
 * [21:40] <Sacha> Isn't that a lot of trouble when you can simply send out a call to interested people
 * [21:40] <Sacha> and then pick one that seems the most trustworthy
 * [21:40] <Sacha> and then you know that they are passionate as they nominated themselves
 * [21:40] <+HariSeldon> Content is necessary, though. Sacha's impatience with the hierarchy method is well placed, I'm just not sure what we can do for a solution.
 * [21:40] <Sacha> passionate and interested and have the time
 * [21:40] <+mildbeard> I have a specific proposal.
 * [21:41] <@TeamColtra> before we go too deep into this... outside of content was there anything directly IT related that needed to be further discussed?
 * [21:41] <@TeamColtra> Because I would love to have this content committee / request / idea be discussed on it's own merits after all the committees have given their updates
 * [21:41] <CalebL*[laptop]> IT standards; of how the PNC wants to enforce such, if at all
 * [21:42] <@TeamColtra> mildbeard sorry for cutting you off.
 * [21:42] <@TeamColtra> CalebL*[laptop] do you have any suggestions there?
 * [21:42] <+mildbeard> np
 * [21:42] <CalebL*[laptop]> I'm just curious if the PNC belives we should take them as standards that need to be met, or recommendations.
 * [21:43] <@TeamColtra> Could you give the PNC an example?
 * [21:43] <CalebL*[laptop]> Or if we should only have strong standard enforcement solely for standards that are in regards of handling and storing private information
 * [21:43] <+mildbeard> Anything that doesn't contradict the core values in the constitution is probably OK with us.
 * [21:43] <CalebL*[laptop]> Well, like a quality standard, saying that States must have IPv6 connectivity implemented by x date, or x month after party formation, etc
 * [21:44] <+mildbeard> We shouldn't dictate too much to the individual states. We only exist at the pleasure of the States.
 * [21:45] <CalebL*[laptop]> and thus I was saying that enforcement should only be reserved for when it's a case of private information.
 * [21:46] <CalebL*[laptop]> Such as password hashing (which is dead simple to meet; given the accepted algorithms) or personal information of donators (for campaign finance, etc)
 * [21:48] <@TeamColtra> This would require a constitutional amendment, so I think that we can also make this an agenda item for tonight if you would like but lets make sure everything gets said first
 * [21:48] <@TeamColtra> CalebL*[laptop] was there anything else that the itspara committee wanted to cover
 * [21:48] <@TeamColtra> ...err the IT committee :\
 * [21:49] <CalebL*[laptop]> Not that I can think of
 * [21:49] * TeamColtra coughs
 * [21:49] <CalebL*[laptop]> or actually, one second
 * [21:50] == MrSquared *[webchat@65.182.wky.sjn] has joined #pnc
 * [21:50] apparently I am a committee
 * [21:50] <CalebL*[laptop]> I have something, I just have to get off the phone quick
 * [21:52] <Sacha> umm brb, please do not end the bylaws committee discussion without me
 * [21:52] == Brady *[~Grizzly@PirateParty/US/Member] has joined #pnc
 * [21:54] <CalebL*[laptop]> Sorry, always freaking on call
 * [21:55] <Sacha> K back
 * [21:56] <CalebL*[laptop]> One thing I'd like to see is some official status with the PNC, such as having an elected leader for the IT committee, whereas of course I'm right now just doing it under a basis of being the self-proclaimed interim leader
 * [21:56] <CalebL*[laptop]> just to make sure everything is fair and kosher
 * [21:58] == jarod_ *[webchat@68.66.mh.twl] has quit *[Quit: Web client closed]
 * [21:58] <@TeamColtra> lol it seems like our break has sent a few people looking the other direction
 * [21:58] <@TeamColtra> let's give everyone a second to return and participate
 * [21:59] <@TeamColtra> (ping Fromm HariSeldon mildbeard Zacqary )
 * [21:59] <+Fromm> I'm here
 * [21:59] <+HariSeldon> hi
 * [21:59] <CalebL*[laptop]> There's a client that calls me almost everyday in regards of their website; so sorry for the lag. xP
 * [21:59] <+mildbeard> When the IT committee was formed, we appointed matuck the head. Can we just appoint CalebL*[laptop] as head instead?
 * [22:00] <@TeamColtra> I think we can, we just need to hold that vote. Do we want to open the floor for other people and allow other people to submit their application?
 * [22:00] <@TeamColtra> or do we just want to say "hear ye hear ye we proclaim CalebL*[laptop] leader of the land of IT"
 * [22:00] <CalebL*[laptop]> By all means, give a couple minutes for nominations
 * [22:00] <Sacha> If Caleb is the only nom do we need to vote? >.>
 * [22:01] <@TeamColtra> Well I was thinking until next meeting for people to throw their name in the hats, otherwise we just officially appoint CalebL*[laptop]
 * [22:01] <@TeamColtra> I am honestly happy with CalebL*[laptop] and would encourage an appointment and if others feel they can do it, they can petition the PNC and we can hold a vote
 * [22:01] <CalebL*[laptop]> Shoot, I forgot there was thing I was going to add earlier in terms of standards
 * [22:03] <+mildbeard> Uh .... should we have a motion to nominate him, or a motion to place this on the agenda for next time.
 * [22:03] <CalebL*[laptop]> as of the standards, it wouldn't be voted into effect by the IT committee of course; instead, they would be put in effect by PNC vote. So if people feel the standard is too restrictive or anything, they could just vote against
 * [22:04] <CalebL*[laptop]> and considering that PNC members represent their state, well, that would be fairly logical.
 * [22:04] <@TeamColtra> mildbeard that's what I am asking you guys
 * [22:04] <@TeamColtra> since I can't make motions
 * [22:05] <+mildbeard> I move that we appoint CalebL*[laptop] as the chair of the IT committee, with responsibility to report to the PNC on a weekly basis.
 * [22:05] <+HariSeldon> second
 * [22:06] <@TeamColtra> Do we want to debate on it?
 * [22:06] <+Zacqary> Sounds like a good idea to me.
 * [22:06] <+Zacqary> That's the extent of my debate.
 * [22:06] <@TeamColtra> Well then if there are no objections let's vote... all in favour that we appoint CalebL*[laptop] as the chair of the IT committee, with responsibility to report to the PNC on a weekly basis. say aye, against say nay
 * [22:07] <+Fromm> aye
 * [22:07] <+Zacqary> Aye\
 * [22:07] <+HariSeldon> aye
 * [22:08] <@TeamColtra> mildbeard :)
 * [22:08] <+mildbeard> aye
 * [22:08] <@TeamColtra> Vote called
 * [22:08] <@TeamColtra> Sacha vote total?
 * [22:08] <Sacha> 4 for
 * [22:10] <@TeamColtra> Okay as for the other thing CalebL*[laptop], we will discuss adding standards as an official part of the constituion (where it would belong) later in the meeting
 * [22:10] <CalebL*[laptop]> by all means
 * [22:10] <@TeamColtra> Was that it? :)
 * [22:10] <CalebL*[laptop]> Yus
 * [22:11] <CalebL*[laptop]> That concludes the ~20 minutes IT committee report. :P
 * [22:11] <@TeamColtra> Bylaws Committee
 * [22:11] <@TeamColtra> Zacqary
 * [22:11] <@TeamColtra> and Sacha will be allowed to speak as well
 * [22:12] <+Zacqary> I'm gonna let Sacha take the lead here because she's been the most productive lately.
 * [22:12] <Sacha> Yay, thank you Zac
 * [22:12] <Sacha> What has happened lately, I made changes to the officer and committees part of the bylaws
 * [22:13] <Sacha> and sent that out a few weeks ago
 * [22:13] <Sacha> Nothing else has happened until today when I changed the formatting to match up with wiki and moved it to this pad: http://piratepad.net/pm9vRozBji
 * [22:13] <Sacha> I would like to suggest that a state motions that we simply vote and debate on the bylaws in here
 * [22:14] <Sacha> instead of hoping that the committee is more active than it has been in the past weeks which is extremely little
 * [22:14] <Sacha> That's all i've got
 * [22:14] <@kusanagi> there were also a lot going on for both zac and myself
 * [22:14] <@kusanagi> this past week i've been drugged to god knows what
 * [22:15] <Sacha> Yes, I understand that which is why I think it is best to simply move discussion about it to everyone.
 * [22:15] <Sacha> I am an impatient person so if patience is needed please tell me
 * [22:15] <+mildbeard> I am looking at the bylaws, and I am not seeing anything that would prevent us from adopting them now and just adding more in the future.
 * [22:16] <+mildbeard> Does anyone else see anything so controversial that it would be an obstacle to ratification?
 * [22:16] <CalebL*[laptop]> So we won't have a secretary at all?
 * [22:16] <@kusanagi> i still have an issue with the officer positions
 * [22:16] <CalebL*[laptop]> and just offload it to the captain?
 * [22:17] <Sacha> What? Quarter Master is there? :/
 * [22:17] <CalebL*[laptop]> Sorry, misread
 * [22:17] <Sacha> Kusanagi I changed them so that they were in line with the constitution more so I am confused
 * [22:17] <CalebL*[laptop]> But still seems odd that the captain is accountable for income
 * [22:18] <Sacha> Yeah, I thought about putting that under QM but as he is the face of the pirate it makes sense that he accepts legal accountability for the party
 * [22:18] <@TeamColtra> Well since the QM is the treasurer
 * [22:18] <+mildbeard> We don't have an official treasurer in the Constitution - we probably need one.
 * [22:18] <@TeamColtra> they should manage income
 * [22:18] <Sacha> Are they the treasurer? In this version they are basically the secretary
 * [22:18] <@kusanagi> mildbeard, that was a suggestion i made
 * [22:18] <@TeamColtra> Your words Sacha:
 * [22:18] <@TeamColtra> *Quartermaster : As the treasurer this position will primarily focus on money and legal issues.
 * [22:18] <@kusanagi> or a financial committee
 * [22:19] <@TeamColtra> it's the first line of the description
 * [22:19] <Sacha> Crap, sorry
 * [22:19] <@TeamColtra> line 53
 * [22:19] <Sacha> I didn't edit that properly, I changed it to be more in line with the constitution
 * [22:19] <+mildbeard> I think we should have treasurer in the constitution to ensure compliance with FEC requirements. Then we can amend the bylaws to fall into line.
 * [22:19] <Sacha> so that is simply a left over from my first officer description, please ignore it
 * [22:19] <CalebL*[laptop]> Perhaps we shouldn't rush into having voting over the bylaws within this meeting?
 * [22:19] <@TeamColtra> AAre you sure, because 54 reaffirms that
 * [22:19] <Sacha> I agree with mildbeard there
 * [22:20] <@TeamColtra> Yes, I would like to have a dedicated treasurer as well
 * [22:20] <Sacha> caleb I would be in favor of discussing them throughly here and voting next week
 * [22:20] <Sacha> I think discussing them outside the PNC has not been useful
 * [22:20] <+mildbeard> I would propose that we can ratify the bylaws, although imperfect, and simply amend them in the future.
 * [22:20] <@TeamColtra> but I think having QM be the treasurer until we can create the position wont hurt, since we are at least a couple months away from having money anyway
 * [22:20] <@TeamColtra> Especially since bylaws only require simple majority votes
 * [22:20] <@kusanagi> there was a second proposal for officers
 * [22:21] <Sacha> Then link them kusi
 * [22:21] <+mildbeard> "Perfect is the enemy of good enough." If we try to solve every problem in advance, we'll never be able to move forward.
 * [22:21] <Sacha> Or actually nevermind
 * [22:21] <@kusanagi> it's more in depth than Sacha's currently are, http://piratepad.net/zn7hKEJPrm
 * [22:21] <Sacha> Should we consider the alternative proposal?
 * [22:21] <Sacha> Or should we simply work off the one that is presented and adjust it?
 * [22:21] <Sacha> As it was the first proposal presented?
 * [22:21] <@TeamColtra> I like Sacha's proposal more
 * [22:22] <Sacha> The big thing that I like about my proposal is that it holds the PNC very accountable
 * [22:22] <Sacha> and limits their powers
 * [22:22] <Sacha> See
 * [22:22] <@kusanagi> as does mine
 * [22:22] <Sacha> Omfg stupid pad, it isn't included
 * [22:22] <@kusanagi> it's ust verbosej
 * [22:22] <CalebL*[laptop]> No need for the 'expiration' section; but there should be something in the bylaws that the bylaws do sunset after a year
 * [22:23] <@kusanagi> and outlines a lot of specifics
 * [22:23] <+mildbeard> I don't really have a problem with the other version either.
 * [22:23] <@TeamColtra> kusanagi your version is not just a verbose version of hers. It is a major shift in roles and responsibilities
 * [22:23] <Sacha> please see the general provisions
 * [22:23] <@kusanagi> TeamColtra, i understand that
 * [22:23] <Sacha> that were not there due to copying errors
 * [22:23] <+mildbeard> I do have a problem with endless debate and never actually doing anything however.
 * [22:23] <@TeamColtra> My vision for Captain is a CEO role and FO as a COO role
 * [22:24] <Sacha> Mildbeard I agree with that
 * [22:24] <Sacha> The major thing that I will not shift on is that the captain explicitly
 * [22:24] <@TeamColtra> I think Sacha's proposal achieves that better
 * [22:24] <Sacha> needs to be in charge of dealing with conflicts and being the spokesperson
 * [22:24] <@kusanagi> well, don't take offence, TeamColtra but you weren't on the bylaws committee.
 * [22:24] <@TeamColtra> kusanagi but I watched the pads and the conversations
 * [22:24] <Sacha> No offense Kusanagi but that doesn't matter, we are in the PNC now and everyone is entitled to their opinion
 * [22:24] <@kusanagi> if that was your vision, you should have worked with us
 * [22:25] <@TeamColtra> kusanagi I did
 * [22:25] <@kusanagi> how?
 * [22:25] <Sacha> Can we not discuss this
 * [22:25] <Sacha> please take it to PM
 * [22:25] <@TeamColtra> by telling this very idea to the people involved
 * [22:25] <@kusanagi> i didn't see your involvement
 * [22:25] <Sacha> it is not relevant
 * [22:25] <@TeamColtra> I gave a vision, and let you guys do what you want with it
 * [22:25] <Sacha> Okay so
 * [22:25] <Sacha> the bylaws
 * [22:25] <Sacha> Would a state like to make a motion
 * [22:25] <Sacha> about if we discuss the bylaws this week
 * [22:25] <Sacha> and then vote on them next week?
 * [22:26] <Sacha> I think that discussing them outside the PNC has been futile, if a state would like to motion that we table it
 * [22:26] <Sacha> I would be amendable to that as well
 * [22:26] <@TeamColtra> Sacha :P give them some time to reply to one of your statements
 * [22:27] <Sacha> TeamColtra Yes sir c:
 * [22:27] <+HariSeldon> move to discuss bylaws this week and vote on them next week
 * [22:27] <CalebL*[laptop]> Well, we have two proposals, and we can try discussing it all within the meeting, but I'm not sure if the PNC meeting will end up being as long as the last IT committee meeting. xP
 * [22:27] <CalebL*[laptop]> So I'm not sure if we'll have everything kosher by next week
 * [22:28] <@TeamColtra> Is there a second for HariSeldon's motion?
 * [22:28] <+HariSeldon> caleb what do you suggest then
 * [22:28] <+mildbeard> I move that we approve the following version of the bylaws:http://piratepad.net/pm9vRozBji
 * [22:29] <CalebL*[laptop]> That we can discuss it further
 * [22:29] <@TeamColtra> mildbeard you actually can't unless HariSeldon would like to revoke their motion
 * [22:29] <+HariSeldon> i revoke my motion
 * [22:29] <Sacha> Should we decide first if kusanagi's counter proposal be considered?
 * [22:29] <CalebL*[laptop]> rather than jump to enforcing a vote for the next week
 * [22:29] <@TeamColtra> okay any seconds for mildbeard's ?
 * [22:29] <Sacha> Caleb that is a good idea
 * [22:30] <Sacha> I would be against just blanket approval of the bylaws, if you mean adopting them
 * [22:30] <+HariSeldon> agree with caleb
 * [22:30] <CalebL*[laptop]> That it be an agenda item this and next.
 * [22:30] <Sacha> or do you mean approving them as the official proposal mildbeard ?
 * [22:30] <+mildbeard> adopt as bylaws, noting that any deficiencies and omissions can easily be amended later.
 * [22:31] <@TeamColtra> I am with mildbeard
 * [22:31] <CalebL*[laptop]> So we're doing it like Obamacare? :P
 * [22:31] <CalebL*[laptop]> Vote it into effect, then read what's in it later? :P
 * [22:31] <@TeamColtra> No, because Obamacare was a copout
 * [22:31] <Sacha> I just disagree with that
 * [22:31] <@TeamColtra> we will find the flaws eventually and we can quickly fix them... we always spend hours and hours debating stupid shit, and then wind up approving it anyway
 * [22:31] <Sacha> I would like to discuss them so that the meaning is understood by all
 * [22:31] <@TeamColtra> Let's approve and fix
 * [22:32] <Sacha> Why not fix it now?
 * [22:32] <Sacha> What is the rush on having it approved?
 * [22:32] <@TeamColtra> it takes a vote of 4 people (technically 3 people with minimum quorum) to make a change to bylaws
 * [22:32] <Sacha> As long as we actively work on it for these next weeks I see no issue
 * [22:32] <@TeamColtra> Sacha do you see something that you want fixed right now?
 * [22:32] <Sacha> TeamColtra I am concerned about the officer positions and the committees
 * [22:32] <Sacha> I fear that if they are not discussed and the reason is not understood
 * [22:33] <Sacha> that when I am gone they will be omitted completely
 * [22:33] <+mildbeard> Not seeing a second, I withdraw my motion and move that we adopt the other version as bylaws: http://piratepad.net/zn7hKEJPrm
 * [22:33] <Sacha> Those are not bylaws
 * [22:33] <Sacha> they are simply the officer duties
 * [22:33] <Sacha> you cannot have the bylaws simply be officer duties
 * [22:33] <@TeamColtra> Any seconds for mildbeard's new motion?
 * [22:34] <CalebL*[laptop]> Perhaps debate first?
 * [22:34] <+HariSeldon> i agree with sacha and caleb.
 * [22:34] <@TeamColtra> you debate after a motion is on the table
 * [22:34] <+HariSeldon> debate first.
 * [22:34] <Sacha> I would support Caleb if someone wants to make a debate
 * [22:34] <@TeamColtra> right now we have nothing to debate
 * [22:34] <+mildbeard> Not hearing any seconds, I withdraw my second motion.
 * [22:35] <@TeamColtra> For there to be a debate, we need sides.... to be against something or for something. Right now we just have some text that was submitted to us.
 * [22:35] <+mildbeard> But I STRONGLY believe we should just be moving forward with adopting any kind of skeleton bylaws, and amending them on an as-needed basis going forward. It really bothers me that we have this attitude of never doing anything until we get it perfect first.
 * [22:36] <+mildbeard> End result: never doing anything.
 * [22:36] <@TeamColtra> :) mildbeard if it makes you feel any better, if I represented a state - I would have seconded you.
 * [22:36] <+mildbeard> thanks
 * [22:36] <Sacha> Mildbeard how about setting a limit of two week's pnc discussion with the third week being voting?
 * [22:36] <Sacha> That is an action plan?
 * [22:36] <+mildbeard> we already said last week we'd consider the bylaws and this week we'd pass them.
 * [22:36] <+Zacqary> Actually. I should have seconded earlier.
 * [22:37] <@TeamColtra> What if we just go through these bylaw by bylaw
 * [22:37] <@TeamColtra> that way we can accomplish a little tonight
 * [22:37] <+Zacqary> For the motion to adopt these: http://piratepad.net/pm9vRozBji
 * [22:37] <+Zacqary> They're a little rough but they're a start.
 * [22:37] <@TeamColtra> or just remove to blanket adopt those
 * [22:38] <@TeamColtra> I am going to move onto the next topic if we don't get some motion onto the floor
 * [22:38] <+Zacqary> Motion to adopt these: http://piratepad.net/pm9vRozBji
 * [22:38] <+mildbeard> second
 * [22:38] <Sacha> Mildbeard no they were simply due last week and we didn't have a meeting
 * [22:38] <Sacha> Okay I would like to discuss the committees section though
 * [22:39] <@TeamColtra> Okay the motion has been moved and seconded... we are now debating the merits of adopting these bylaws http://piratepad.net/pm9vRozBji
 * [22:39] <Sacha> because if we adopt them as is we have to create a board
 * [22:39] <Sacha> "okay I would like to discuss the committees section"
 * [22:39] <Sacha> sorry I went early
 * [22:40] <@TeamColtra> https://pnc.piratenpad.de/amendedbylawsoutline
 * [22:40] <@TeamColtra> If you would like to make changes Sacha use that document and make the amendments you would like to see to the motion
 * [22:41] <@TeamColtra> Btw, point of order - I am accepting the motion to be in long form that each of the bylaws are included in the motion itself.
 * [22:41] <Sacha> I do not wish to make changes
 * [22:41] <+Zacqary> Wait a minute, I just noticed some of the bylaws have 2012 expiration dates.
 * [22:41] <Sacha> I wish that people explicitly recognize that section and discuss it
 * [22:41] <+Zacqary> We need to change those.
 * [22:41] <+Zacqary> Because we're adopting them in 2012.
 * [22:41] <Sacha> Zac should we just change them as they are clearly a typo?
 * [22:41] <+Zacqary> Okay.
 * [22:41] <@TeamColtra> ie the motion isn't "pass this URL" but "pass the contents of this url" (which we all knew anyway)
 * [22:42] <Sacha> Fixed
 * [22:42] <Sacha> Can we spend some time discussing the committees section? It would be the biggest change to how we do business
 * [22:43] <Sacha> and I would feel better if we all at least read it and then voted
 * [22:43] <Sacha> can we all completely read the proposal before voting? :/
 * [22:44] <CalebL*[laptop]> Something doesn't quite make sense:
 * [22:44] <CalebL*[laptop]> All the bylaws are under the category or headline 'META'
 * [22:44] <+Zacqary> No, that's just the first ones that are bylaws about the bylaws.
 * [22:44] <+mildbeard> Personally I think the 3/4 requirement for disbanding committees is too high. However I won't object to it, because that provision can be amended by majority vote if we ever have a problem with it.
 * [22:44] <CalebL*[laptop]> and 'Structure of Bylaws' is one step too deep
 * [22:45] <CalebL*[laptop]> Should be ===Structure of Bylaws=== not ====Structure of Bylaws====
 * [22:45] <+Zacqary> Guys, um...would it be the end of the world if I left? I'm being called to dinner. Like now.
 * [22:45] <+Fromm> "This Board will not be a committee that reports to the PNC"
 * [22:45] <@TeamColtra> Actually it would Zacqary
 * [22:45] <+Fromm> Can someone explain that
 * [22:45] <+Zacqary> Fffffffffffuuuuuu
 * [22:45] <@TeamColtra> if you leave, we break quorum
 * [22:45] <Sacha> Fromm that is why I want this proposal discussed lol
 * [22:45] <@TeamColtra> and we have to adjourn
 * [22:45] <+mildbeard> Can't kusanagi act for Zacqary?
 * [22:46] <Sacha> umm can kusanagi step in
 * [22:46] <Sacha> as his alternate?
 * [22:46] <@kusanagi> i'm ab ut to head off myselfo
 * [22:46] <@TeamColtra> Umm... sure that makes sense :D
 * [22:46] <@TeamColtra> lol well one of you has to stay
 * [22:46] <+Zacqary> Travis, can YOU be my alternate?
 * [22:46] <CalebL*[laptop]> but chair and vice chair can't represent, last I recall
 * [22:46] <@kusanagi> that too CalebL*[laptop]
 * [22:46] <+mildbeard> chair can't represent.
 * [22:46] <@TeamColtra> I certainly cannot
 * [22:46] <@TeamColtra> I would have no desire to, my obligation is to the PNC not NY
 * [22:47] <+mildbeard> Look, I'm going to move that we vote now and amend later. Move to vote.
 * [22:47] <+Fromm> It makes no sense to have something in the bylaws that has no direct connection with the PNC
 * [22:47] <+mildbeard> while we have quorum.
 * [22:47] <+Zacqary> Second
 * [22:47] <Sacha> Mildbeard we have allowed it in the past
 * [22:47] <@TeamColtra> You are asking to vote while debate is still happening so I am going to make this a vote for previous question (ie a vote to vote)
 * [22:47] <@TeamColtra> all in favour of moving to vote
 * [22:47] <+Zacqary> Aye
 * [22:47] <+mildbeard> aye
 * [22:47] <CalebL*[laptop]> nay
 * [22:48] <Sacha> abstain
 * [22:48] <+HariSeldon> aye
 * [22:48] <Sacha> wait, I can't vote lol nvm
 * [22:48] <+Fromm> nay
 * [22:48] <+mildbeard> sure Michigan is at large
 * [22:48] <@TeamColtra> I think it's because she is QM
 * [22:48] <Sacha> I am acting QM though so idk
 * [22:48] <@TeamColtra> and since she tallies the votes
 * [22:49] <Sacha> If that is all that is voting
 * [22:49] <@TeamColtra> but she abstains anyway :P
 * [22:49] <@TeamColtra> I call the vote
 * [22:49] <Sacha> 3 for, 1 against
 * [22:49] <+mildbeard> yeah
 * [22:49] <+Zacqary> 2 against but the ayes still have it.
 * [22:49] <Sacha> yup
 * [22:49] <Sacha> Sorry
 * [22:49] <Sacha> 3 for, 1 against, at large against
 * [22:49] <+Zacqary> Okay. So. Are we voting to pass these bylaws?
 * [22:49] <Sacha> so 3 for, 1.5 against
 * [22:50] <Sacha> so I believe it would be passing...
 * [22:50] <@TeamColtra> All in favour of passing the bylaws
 * [22:50] <+mildbeard> aye
 * [22:50] <CalebL*[laptop]> nay
 * [22:50] <+Zacqary> Aye
 * [22:50] <+HariSeldon> aye
 * [22:50] <+Fromm> aye
 * [22:51] <Sacha> 4 for, at large against motion passes
 * [22:51] <@TeamColtra> Sacha do you mind :)
 * [22:51] <Sacha> You were taking so long sorry and I knew how many people were in here and next time I will be good >.<
 * [22:51] <@TeamColtra> I like to give everyone a couple minutes to vote, even though the vote will pass the at larges should have a vote on the record
 * [22:51] <@TeamColtra> but the vote is now called.
 * [22:52] <Sacha> 4 for, at large against
 * [22:52] <Sacha> and I will add that the only at large on the rolls is Caleb so the point is moot ish BEHAVING SORRY
 * [22:52] <+mildbeard> With the chair's indlugence, I'd like to make a comment.
 * [22:53] <@TeamColtra> I know Zacqary has to go... which will break quorum but can homework please be to 1 look over those bylaws and make amendments 2 think about how we can reduce the number of meetings we have to maybe byweekly
 * [22:53] <@TeamColtra> mildbeard go ahead
 * [22:53] <+mildbeard> I would just like to comment that I see minor problems and many omissions in the new bylaws, and personally I am sure that we will amend them frequently in the future.
 * [22:53] <+mildbeard> thanks
 * [22:53] <@TeamColtra> Thank you mildbeard I agree entirely
 * [22:53] <+Zacqary> Okay, I really gotta get going, guys.
 * [22:53] <+Zacqary> See ya.
 * [22:53] == Zacqary *[~chatzilla@ihmt-19-243-51-420.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit *[Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 *[Firefox 15.0.1/20120905151427]]
 * [22:54] <@TeamColtra> Due to lack of quorum, this meeting is adjourned automatically
 * [22:54] <Sacha> I will sit in #bylaws to discuss my rationale with the by laws if anyone is interested in discussing flaws they already see in order to speed along amendment
 * [22:54] <CalebL*[laptop]> Use #uspp-bylaws
 * [22:54] <+HariSeldon> i would... but i have to go too.
 * [22:55] <+HariSeldon> I'll just look at it and find amendments for next time.
 * [22:55] <CalebL*[laptop]> The IRCops prefer that channels that are only relevant for a specific geographic area to be prefixed
 * [22:55] <Sacha> No problemo, you can email me directly at belle10152@hotmail.com if you wish to ask me questions about it specifically
 * [22:55] <CalebL*[laptop]> Same goes for #pnc by the way. xP
 * [22:55] <Sacha> Caleb no biggie c:
 * [22:55] <+HariSeldon> see ya guys thank you. :)
 * [22:56] <Sacha> Bye bye c: